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 [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy

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Gnomercy
Ramasseur de kamas


Messages : 74
Date d'inscription : 19/05/2014

MessageSujet: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Lun 19 Mai 2014 - 11:49

Welcome to "The River." You may cross the through the water, but you will become wet and lose AP for doing so. The maximum penalty you may receive from getting wet in the river is -1 AP. Other forms of reducing AP may still apply.

Mechanic: Figures starting their turn in water are -1 AP on that turn. Figures moving through the water on their turn are -1 AP from the moment they enter the water until the start of their next turn. Figures pushed/pulled through the water will be -1 AP on their next turn. Nothing Itty Bitty (tofu, bombs, etc) can remain above water. If it enters, it is immediately KO'd. Bombs do not explode in water. Figures may be pushed or pulled into the water from shore or off the bridge.





Dernière édition par Gnomercy le Mar 3 Juin 2014 - 7:54, édité 6 fois (Raison : Map has been submitted. Changing text to reflect contest entry.)
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Ruppin
Bad Aboum mal réveillé !
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Date d'inscription : 15/06/2013
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Localisation : Nantes

MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Lun 19 Mai 2014 - 12:53

Interesting concept, love what you've done wit the map.

One main problem, i think.
If you want to be competitive, you can't give a resistance to only one element on a map. This would break the balance between figs.

I don't really have the time to get through the start placement and all as i'm doing this on my maps but you sure have a quite good idea there.
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[moo-moo]
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MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Mer 21 Mai 2014 - 14:10

Nice but the minus AP system of the water is too heavy. try to make only one simple AP effect. the other things about bombs and itty-bitty are cool. resist fire might be too specific.

but this resist mechanic could be the focus of another map ^^

besides that, it'as almost a perfect and fits in the contest's rules Very Happy
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Gnomercy
Ramasseur de kamas


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Date d'inscription : 19/05/2014

MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Mar 27 Mai 2014 - 8:29

Look good?

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[moo-moo]
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MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Mar 27 Mai 2014 - 9:10

after a second reading, I think this map might be a little too stuffed. ANd stil not fan of the minus AP system, the extra MP for getting out of the water should already be a good enough punishment for being thrown into it...

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Gnomercy
Ramasseur de kamas


Messages : 74
Date d'inscription : 19/05/2014

MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Mar 27 Mai 2014 - 11:14

AP and MP might be too much, and pushing across would negate the extra MP cost anyway. Pushing teams are already troublesome enough. That's why I wanted the water to penalize by the space, and not just 1 effect no matter how much you cross. Its only 2 spaces deep on the sides, which is where I put the kama to encourage sacrificing AP for kama if you want to cross at the beginning. A bush and tree block the kama from the team starting on that side in the normal untapped position.

There needs to be some kind of penalty for the water that can't be avoided via Srammy/Luk pushing that is not too harsh to prevent someone from crossing it to grab the 3 kama. But bad enough to want to avoid getting pushed in by the enemy. HP would be the most harsh, MP can be avoided, so AP is the most logical choice. Its also the same way water bombs work, so it makes sense.

As for the map being too stuffed, the water is playable space, unlike celestial holes. The Ankama convention map uses 8 trees and bushes, all while taking away 12 spaces due to the new celestial hole design. And people seem to like that just fine. Sounds like it might not be your favorite though if you're not a fan of confined spaces.

A clever use of reducing AP (just like Shak Shaka) would be to stand in the middle of the water. This prevents most summons from attacking that use meelee (not Gobbal though), as well as lvl 1's like Coa. You must sacrifice AP to hide there though, and if you get pushed out of the water, then you're in serious trouble (-3 AP). Seems like a balanced risk vs reward system to me, so -AP isn't all bad.
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Gnomercy
Ramasseur de kamas


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Date d'inscription : 19/05/2014

MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Mar 27 Mai 2014 - 11:21

More than -1 AP is probably too much. The MP won't even come into play with pushers, so I might as well just remove that bit.
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[moo-moo]
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MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Mar 27 Mai 2014 - 11:35

No no, I like confined spaces, but it seems too much of an advantage for summons team, and hard for HTH fighters (whose life is already harsh enough ^^)

So you would switch to AP loss only ? Sounds nice Very Happy

M

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Dacow
Community Manager


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Date d'inscription : 06/11/2013

MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Mar 27 Mai 2014 - 11:39

I would suggest -1 AP if the water is entered or left with MP - like the block roll trigger.
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Gnomercy
Ramasseur de kamas


Messages : 74
Date d'inscription : 19/05/2014

MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Mar 27 Mai 2014 - 13:49

I have no problem making it -1 AP only per turn. I have to be willing to compromise in order for my map to stay competitive, and I see you are making valid points, so I will change.

Dacow, I'm not sure if making it like a block roll trigger (only lose AP when you use MP to move through water) is necessary, but it is a good idea. Personally, I like being able to punish my opponent in a way similar to a trap. It seems like it would be more competitive that way. With the block roll version, you're still able to knock your opponent into the water, and most likely they will have to use normal movement to exit, but they have the option to not move and cast long range spells still. It seems this would severely punish HTH fighters even more and give another advantage to long range fighters since they can attack first, and then move to avoid losing AP. While it would make the penalty less harsh, it makes the difference between long range fighters and HTH fighters even more unbalanced.

I could make the bridge a safe crossing zone, where you are unable to be forced into the water. This would then lessen the risk of crossing to the other side. Meelee fighters need a safe way of catching their opponents. I agree this map does not favor HTH combat, something should be done to help restore that balance.

Many summons teams are at a big disadvantage on this map because of the water. For instance, Tofu's, bombs, sacrificial dolls (can't attack if wet, water becomes safe haven). So its only confined when you decide you are only willing to use the bridge to cross. The water can be used to your advantage, in the same way Shak Shaka can stop figures from attacking twice, or at all. King of the Gobballs could be very strong in the water. With 7 ap, he is still able to attack twice per turn. And his summon has an extra AP point as well, so it can also attack when wet (one of the few summons like this).

Here is a better quality version of the aesthetically pleasing map btw.
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Gnomercy
Ramasseur de kamas


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Date d'inscription : 19/05/2014

MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Mar 27 Mai 2014 - 14:06

In regards to the meelee fighters being weak on this map, that applies to the non-tapped version more than the tapped version. In the tapped version, it may not be necessary to cross the water at all. There are also multiple options for pushing your figuring to the other side of the board very quickly. Something that makes meelee fighters quite dangerous.

Having different styles of gameplay for the different orientations was pointed out as being a benefit in designing your map. I think I've successfully done that here. Take a look at the tapped version.

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Dacow
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Date d'inscription : 06/11/2013

MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Mar 27 Mai 2014 - 14:30

Then give them -1 Ap marker for being wet... this way both krosmaster melee and range are effected in the same way the round after moving or staying in water.

Like:
trigger 1: -1 AP marker for entering or leaving a water field using MP
trigger 2: -1 AP marker for ending a krosmasters turn in water -> preventing f.e. willhelm tell to stand still in water shooting freely

cheers

Dacow
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Gnomercy
Ramasseur de kamas


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Date d'inscription : 19/05/2014

MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Mer 28 Mai 2014 - 22:01

There should be no way around getting wet, so it must happen immediately. If figures were limited to being penalized on their 2nd turn, it would make the water useless as a strategic battle ground.  

Example 1. Bill Tell moves into the water because his opponent is out of range. His AP will be reduced on his next turn, but he is still able to attack twice.

Example 2. Makum Bah moves into the water and summons 2 dolls. The dolls are in water and together they kill Bill Tell. Because they are already gone, the -1 AP is inconsequential to them.

This is what I propose:
Figures starting their turn in water are -1 AP on that turn. Figures moving through the water on their turn are -1 AP from the moment they enter the water until the start of their next turn. If a figure enters and exits the water on their turn with 0 AP points, they will begin their next turn with -1 AP.
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Gnomercy
Ramasseur de kamas


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Date d'inscription : 19/05/2014

MessageSujet: Re: [CLOSED] The River by Gnomercy    Lun 2 Juin 2014 - 23:58

Scratch that last bit. If a figure wants to use all their AP and then cross, that's fine. They'll dry out if they make it back to land by their next turn.
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